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I think a lot of the people who are against it, approach it from an abstract viewpoint and don't understand this is about real, existing children out there. These families already exist and so it's best for them to have legal protection, access to health insurance and all the rest, the same as any other family.
When people say things like "Gay couples shouldn't exist" or "Gay parents shouldn't have kids" it just astonishes me. Ok, fine, you're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't get around the fact that THEY DO. What are you going to do about it, pass laws to take the kids away and put them in an orphanage? Or make sure the kids have the same legal protections as anyone else's kids?
And, don't go down the usual bigoted and hypocritical path that those who oppose equal rights for gays... for if you do, depending upon your "angle", you must start taking children away from all single parents. And if you read your Bible, but haven't done the work to understand God's message to us, you have to stone all gay people to death anyway.
I pray for peace for all of us.
But I still believe that (1) all else being equal, children are generally better off being raised by a father and a mother together, to provide both male and female role models; and (2) society has a right put the collective general welfare of its children ahead of the sexual orientation/lifestyle preferences of its adults.
Children are better off being raised in a "traditional family"? So what qulaifies you to make such a poorly thought out statement. I can say with nearly 100% certainty that you're NOT qualified to say this.
We DO NOT live in an ideal world. We live in a diverse world and we'd be a heck of a lot better off if we would live by this.
Children are better off in a loving home regardless of the sexual orientation of the parents. I can think of MANY heterosexual parents who should NOT be parenting children.
Morticia @ 8
Many kids are being raised by gay parents now and have been for years and I don't see any cases of "abuse". So, please save your Christian rhetoric for your church socials. I know many people who would have been far better off being raised outside of a "traditional home". Take Ted Haggard's kids as an example.
What you're missing here is that being gay is NOT a "lifestyle". People live lifestyles regardless of what their sexual orientation is.
If being gay is a lifestyle, so is being Baptist, Lutheran and born again.
I've known that I was gay and different than my family since I was five years old and that my sexuality is part of who I am. Being raised Methodist was a choice by my parents, not something which is innately part of me.
So, "this stinks"? What really stinks here is when jugmental people spend their time talking about something which they no nothing about.
I've met more than a few adults who've been raised to be wonderful people by lesbian and gay parents. One in particular made the statement that she'd would not have had it any other way.
So, please pull your ignorant head out of the sand, fold your bible up and deal with reality.
Grow up everyone and please do not bring the Bible into this discussion.
Having grown up in San Francisco, and having witnessed many friends struggle with their orientation, I can tell you without a doubt that being gay or straight is not a choice (if it were, would Mary Cheney, daughter of the most conservative VP we've ever had, choose to be gay?). In my experience, the people who think that it is a choice have never spent any quality time with anyone who is gay.
The real choice here is whether it is better for kids to languish in foster care, or to be adopted by parents who want them, regardless if they are gay or straight. Oviously what is best for the kids is to have a loving family, despite what the "hate in the name of God" crowd says.
P.S. I had a lot of gay teachers growing up and guess what...I'm straight.
Ever.
Shame on you so called Christian hate mongers. Jesus would be ashamed of what you do in his name.
Their first son, Adam is 14 now. He's a delightful boy who is doing very well in school and plays soccer and has a wonderful group of friends to ski with. Their second, and newest son, Mick is 3 and is loved by his brother. He's come from Ethiopia and he's a delightful child.
Their parents have been together for 25 years and love their boys. They are both lesbian, pay taxes and have a beautiful home to raise their family.
I really don't see anything wrong here. Their kids are not on crack, they don't have emotional problems, they accel in school.
Hmmmm, there are a lot of these gay parents around raising kids who will be productive adults in the future.
So maybe the bible thumpers can start putting their little black books away now and keep their religion to themselves.
Now that was an intelligent, well thought out post!
Pathetic, absolutely PATHETIC.
An additional comment to Alan's post here. It's amazingly selfish that the "morality clan" would prefer to see children in a series of foster homes than in an environment where a kid would actually have a chance to become an emotionally healthy, happy adult with a productive life.
I thought Christianity was supposed to be about teaching love, acceptance and tolerance rather than judgment, hypocrisy and hatred. What's went so wrong in America today?
This is a question of whether a child who is being raised in a home with two parents should be legally a child of both of them, rather than just one.
The fitness of homosexuals to raise children is irrelevant to this topic. The thing we *should* be asking is whether we think it's fair, when a child is being raised by two people (whoever they are, whatever sex or orientation they are), for that child to be recognised legally as being the child of just one.
What if one of the parents is incapacitated or something? Would you have the child taken away from his or her remaining loving parent and thrust back into a foster home?
The bible also said the earth was flat, Ed. "Chang their lifestyle"? Out of what,, Christian imposed guilt? Ed, it's already been proven that the gay/straight conversion stuff is garbage. Look at your own Rev. Ted, who I am sure will sadly continue to live his life in denial.
"Shorten their time on this earth"? Could you elaborate on this one please? I don't know any adults today who have had their lives shortened because they had gay or lesbian parents. Is this something in line with your misguided faith or what?
The bible was written by people and I'm sure they had homophobes and biggots in 30BC, so please learn to keep your beliefs to yourself.
Faithfreaks are going to take this country down much like they have in Iraq, Iran and many part of the Middle East. Muslim extremist or Chistian extremist, it's all the same garbage.
The other point that I hope people are not overlooking is that this bill, if passed into law, would be a boon to the legal industry. It is common for people to accuse conservatives of being motivated by greed rather than principle; so please at least recognize that this bill creates legal custody and child support issues where none will have existed before. I am confident that this bill enjoys the support of the Colorado Bar Association, representing a VERY big business.
I have a few questions that I’m having a hard time answering based on your post; who or what is society? Is it you? Is it a simple majority? Is it the Denver County, the State of Colorado, the United States? Who or what decides what the “general welfare� is? Why stop at sexual orientation of adoptive parents as an excuse to use the state to coercively force one group of people to act (or not to act) the way another group of people would prefer? Are children, or adults for that matter, really the possessions or creations of society or was that just a slip of the tongue?
I will not comment on my personal feelings specific to homosexual parents who want to adopt children. I would like to point out, however, that by turning over our natural right to solve problems and address issues that face individuals to government undermines and erodes the very thing that has made this country great, liberty. Saying that society and it’s supposed interests supersede the rights of individuals to make choices that they feel will improve their own situation (or the situation of loved ones) is the first step on the short journey to tyranny. So you don’t like homosexuals adopting children? Adopt the children yourself. It’s very easy and seductive to want to spread the cost of your preferred actions to all of society. Said another way, you don’t want children being adopted by homosexuals. Rather than incur the cost of preventing this personally (adopting the children yourself, convincing your friends, neighbors to adopt etc.), you are more than willing to use government to coercively prevent gay parents from adopting. Since government is funded by all taxpayers (“society�), the effect is that you have managed to get the benefit you are seeking (children not being adopted by gays) while not incurring the entire cost yourself. In the mean time, government is more than willing to take over yet another little bit of responsibility over the lives of the individuals that make up “society�, further ensuring its survival and encroaching on our natural rights and liberties. Now we really may be one step closer to being possessions of the state.
I was raised with two female parents. one was my mother, the other was my grandmother. I came out fine. Sure I had some problems with the absence of a father figure, but I adapted over time and now I'm busting my own behind to be the best father I can to my own son.
Love of family has everything to do with what is done in the family unit, not who's in it. Family is kith and kin, after all. Let them adopt and be the same parents as the rest of us.
The homophobes and other anti-family hypocrites and bigots can go back to their Dark Ages where they're actually with the times.
So, when do we get to the democracy part where the voice of the people actually matters? Or does that not count in red states?
This is why we elect representatives who (hopefully) have done the due dilligence to make an educated decision to enforce the terms set out in the constitution which guarantee liberty and justice for ALL. All includes gay people. We also have elected representatives who are there to honor the separation of church and state.
So Chris, why should traditional marriage have been put to a vote? If civil rights had been put to a vote in 1964, we would not have had them in the first place.
The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed by our elected officials and since this is the standard which was set, I guess I have to wonder why are the rights of the Gay and Lesbian community being put to a vote? This seems like an inconsistent standard for a minority which is clearly ostricized and marginalized.
Different point of view or hateful and uneducated point of view? Think carefully here.
Seems like another ball of Rev. Ted and the Focus on the Family hypocrisy.
Gay folks are fine and I have no problem with them parenting kids. Many folks have grown up with same sesx parents and they've come out just fine.
Most Christians need to practice what they preach and reaffirm that they are not the ones to judge and keep their beliefs at home.
Religion has no place any place else but in the home and at the church and it needs to remain OUT of government and out of everyday folks lives. People came to this country based on religious persecution and therefore, they're entitled to religious freedom and not freedom to opress people based on their religious beliefs.
I think it high time that we review whether or not churches should remain tax exempt if the religious right is so intent on playing a part in politics.
See, Chris, it solves all of your problems and covers your hatreds.
WAYNE EATON - AUBURN, CA
Get it yet?
You Bible Humpers are all brainwashed, scared, small minded people.
But here's the twist: Colorado HAS been faithful to traditional values and family. We failed Referendum I and passed the marriage amendment. But the liberal Democrats at the Capitol feel that, despite our strong voice for traditional values, they still know better than we what is best for our state. That's the problem. The people of Colorado did the right thing. The people of Colorado typically do the right thing. This is a fine state filled with God-fearing, family-loving people. But our government is not. Our leaders are pursuing a radically secular agenda. I hope in 2008 there is a blowback from the voters of Colorado.
The answer to your question about what can't a same sex relationship give to a child what a man and wife marriage can is very simple. They cannot give to a child the meaning of a husband/wife relationship. They cannot see how a relationship works between a man and a woman. They cannot see the interaction between a man and a woman. All they have to go by is a relationship between a man/man or woman/woman. You cannot tell me that this does not leave scars and problems for this child when he grows up and tries to have a relationship with the opposite sex. All he has to draw on is same sex unions, leaving him mentally handicapped as to a normal relationship of a man and a woman.
It's sad to read so many hypocritical religious statements. Do you read your own posts? You say a child being raised by 2 gay parents is being "forced into a lifestyle they didn't choose?" What about preaching your religious myths to children as if they are truth? That's brainwashing.
The comedy in some of these posts, its better than the comeday channel. First off I think Sarah hit the nail on the head on what the discussion is about. If gay individuals are already able to adopt, why not couples?
Cowboy, how is passing this law prohibiting your right to practice your religion, and how is this violating your rights. Would you rather have a child grow up with no parents or bounce around foster homes the rest of his life or be put in a home with two people that love them?
This bill is all about equal rights. Cowboy is right we do repeat history, and america will overcome this feeling towards homosexuals just like we turned the page on the civil rights era.
Cowboy, you say that growing up with two gay parents would mentally handicap a child, like the mental handicap you have with your bigotry and ignorance you were brought up with. At least that child growing up with two gay parents would be taught acceptance for all people no matter their sexual preference or ignorance.
Kudos to Les(#54) as well. I'm glad to see Colorado is switching away from this bible-thumping conservative state.
The slow degredation of the wall which seperates church and state will be the downfall of this country. Soon, we'll be back to burnt offerings, virgin sacrifices, and worshipping the sun.
How about using logic, and reason to solve problems?
"there is a plethora of research backing the necessity of man/woman parenting."
Please provide a link to this "plethora of research" that you speak of.
Sorry cowboy, but I can tell you that I personally know or have met several adults today who have been raised by same sex parents. Your arguement that it "leaves scars" is ridiculous and clearly shows your ignorance.
Sadly, you're VERY, VERY wrong. It's time to wake up and pull your head out of the sand.
-Abraham Lincoln
"Plethora of research"? Please cite them, becasuse I am sure that this is not true or it's just more "scientifically based research" from groups like Focus on the Family.
You bible thumpers really amaze me at the level of arrogance and narcissism that you hold so dearly. I guess this is why so many religious fanatics wind up in trouble like Rev. Ted Harrard, Rev. Lonnie in Oklahoma and I can go down the list.
Religious fanatics have no credibility in my mind. They're the same in any culture. It's all the same and it equals nothing more than weak minded individuals grasping at straws to hold on to some iota of security.
You're glad to see that Colorado is turning away from being a Bible-thumping red state?
I hate the break it to you, but it's not Colorado that turning at all. It's the liberal Boulder lawmakers trying to impose their secular worldview on a state that soundly rejected it in the Fall. You forget that this Bible-thumping red state voted against gay unions and gay adoption a mere six months ago. We voted that a child has a right to be raised with a mother and a father and now liberal lawmakers are imperially thwarting that popular will.
To you chagrin, I'm sure, Colorado is still a traditional place where we value faith and value family--no matter what our lawmakers say. This is not an example of democracy--it is secular tyranny and the people of Colorado will kindly show the secular fanatics the door in 2008.
We could also change the laws of Colorado to reflect your bible. You know - killing people who work on the sabbath, commit adultery, follow another religion, are homosexual. Oh, and slavery would still be legal.
"secular fanatics"
LOL.
Boulder is not turning anything, take a look around and open your eyes to the real world.
Am I missing something, are all non-religious people getting kicked out of Colorado in 2008. I didn't get the memo. Is Ted Haggard running?
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
#63 LD
I'm not sure how old either of you are, but undoubtedly not old enough to have much history or knowledge behind you. It seems that you two either don't remember much history or never had it in school. From your letters, I'm not sure you place much emphasis on values or credibility. What I see is you two running with the flow, like most everybody else. Just because you have "gay" or "lesbian" friends does not mean that you have a deep enough understanding of them or have the capabilities to truelly tell if they would be good "parents" or not. A lot of things go on behind closed doors and I don't mean just the gays or lesbians that you do not have a clue about. For either of you to be so "authorative" about things is a miserable attempt at showing some assemblance of knowledge of the subject.
#66
I hate to burst your bubble also, but the First Ammendment was not written to keep religion out of the government, contrary to popular assumption. All the so-called laws that have been passed and the restrictions placed on any type of religion in any public place or on any government property violates the First Amendment. The First Amendment was made to keep the government from setting up any religious orginization and require the citizens of this coutry to attend. The government ALLOWING religious activities does not mean that they are endorsing or advocating any religion and it does not violate the First Amendment, barring religious activities anywhere, government property or not violates this amendment. The popular belief that the ACLU has put out leads one to think that our founding fathers put the First Amendment in there to be determinded at a later date by better qualified lawyers who could interpret it properly and truelly understand what they were trying to say. It's all garbage. You people need to really and truelly do some very serious fact finding and learn the truth, before you stumble into this mine field that you evidently know so very little about.
They were both cheated on and drug through messy divorces and as a result are now teaching their young daughters (7 & 12) to hate men.
I will always decry the involvement of religious extremists in state politics. Never will I understand why the god that these people worship is obsessed with sex, sexuality and the human body, and has apparently no interest in social justice or the general good. Love is love. All unwanted children deserve a loving home, be it gay or straight.
Go with the flow, at least I'm in the game, your the guy that would complain even if things were going great and only post in threads like these to try and show how much smarter you are than everyone. Good job, we are in awe of how much knowledge of you have. Next time stick to discussion.
Here's the American Psychology Association website that provides a summary of all the research that's been done in the last 35 years, both in America and abroad, regarding the subject. I'd recommend you read the whole summary (links underneath the main text on the page)--that means everything on all the links--before you make claims you can't back up.
http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html
Please read the research before you claim it backs you. And let these families live in peace and with the same rights you have for your children.
I'm sorry to inform you that the ACLU IS NOT DEFENDING RELIGOUS RIGHTS AN ANY WAY,SHAPE OR FASHION. That's what they tell you and that's what they want you to believe. The real, true agenda for the ACLU (under the guise of religious freedom), is the total elimination of christianity in the United States and any and all signs that it was ever here. You don't think so, check it out for yourself. Do a little digging, don't accept anything for fact without checking it out first. What they are truelly doing will shock you. They have had schools suspend high school kids for praying before school, there were two women in their 70 in Detroit that were holding religous signs, they were arrested snd sentenced for violating the freedom of religion clause. Each is doing 1 year in jail. They tried for 5 years to have a cross removed from a military memorial in California because one atheist objected to it, claimed it violated his religious freedom. The ACLU footed the court costs for this man. Schools are not allowed to preach or teach religion, yet in California, there are three high schools that have a mandatory 5 week course in Islam, teaching every aspect of the Muslum religion, the prayers and all, but anything that even hints of any other religion is barred. If you firmly believe in religous freedom for those that believe and those that believe other things, you better do some very, very serious digging into things before you start telling the things you think you know. Truth be known, the co-founder of the ACLU is a confirmed Communist and believes in every facet of it AND believes that this is the way America should be governed. But, if I read what you are saying correctly, you won't do any of it, like everybody else, till it's too late. You think you have the answers, but you truelly don't know the questions. Stand up for once, find your own answers instead of relying on someone elses ideas, find out what's really going on. I have not too many years left to live, you have a long time, ask yourself this question. What kind of life do you want for you and your children? I'm serious.
You're like the man in the middle of the river that was told several times that there was a water fall ahead and his comment was. Hey, man, I'm just going with the flow. Things are going good now, why worry about that? It's like the old saying, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. I can give you a lot of knowledge that I have acquired in my many years, but I can't make you listen or understand. Wisdom and knowledge are wasted on the young. I will tell you one more thing, where you are now, I once was, where I am now, you, one day will be. Choose your words and life carefully, you only get one chance at it, then you'll have these know-it-alls telling you things that you know is wrong too. Like I tell everyone, sooner or later all "your" chickens will come home to roost, make sure they are good ones.
Just because a couple cannot bear children, does not mean they should not be allowed to adopt. What about infertile couples?